Overcoming Shyness and Stuttering: A Conversation with Michael Thompson

Episode Transcript

Julianna: Hello, and welcome to the Daring to Succeed podcast. I’m your host, Julianna Yau Yorgan, and today I’m joined by author, lecturer, and coach, Michael Thompson. Mike grew up painfully shy with a debilitating stutter. Despite still being shy and at times still stuttering, today Mike is a career coach, leadership lecturer for master’s students in Barcelona, Spain, and a strategic communication advisor to top business leaders around the globe. He is the author of Shy by Design, 12 Timeless Principles to Quietly Stand Out, and his work has appeared in dozens of mainstream publications, including Fast Company, Insider, and Inc. When he’s not with students and clients to scale their impact on their own terms, he can be found exploring the Mediterranean with his wife and two young boys in his adopted home of Palamos, Spain. Welcome to the podcast, Mike.

Mike: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to meet someone else in Spain in the same arena.

Julianna: Yes, absolutely. So we’ll start off our questions with the one I ask all of my guests, which is, do you consider yourself more introverted, extroverted, or a bit of both?

Mike: I’m a little bit of like a scale from 0 to 100. I’m introverted, probably like down towards the bottom. But I’ve become kind of a practiced extrovert just because of that. Like I love people, I’m fascinated by people and I like being around people. And my work is like, it’s kind of a thing like where I teach in front of groups and that’s still not comfortable for me. It’s just one of those things that I do it because it’s not like, it’s not about me. And I like, I love being around students of different backgrounds, but the second that I get a chance to kind of escape and go back to myself, I take it. And just this past weekend, my wife and kids were away for 48 hours. And like the typical, like I went out once to buy food and the rest of the time I was at home. It’s like I get like energy from people, but I need to recharge pretty quickly after people. So it’s fascinating.

Julianna: Yeah, I find a lot of introverts have learned to be more extroverted, or we actually do quite enjoy being around people. I think a lot of people think that introverts are just like these antisocial shut-ins, but like you said, it’s just that recharge time we really need on our own.

Mike: Yeah, and I like to think like I need time to think and process kind of what I’m doing. I think that’s why I connected with writing. I started maybe seven or eight years ago and it was one of those things where I was like, why wasn’t I doing this since day one? Yeah. Like to think before I speak, like growing up stuttering is like the writing played a huge role in actually stuttering less. Is because I took the time to like write down stories thoughts feelings. So it’s more about like I know what i’m gonna say Now it’s more just focusing on how i’m gonna say it right. Um, so it’s one of those kick me moments where I went into sales for 15 years and then I said, oh, maybe I should have been writing instead But now it’s actually like it’s really calm like it’s like it’s Just the exercise of like who am I? It took me 37 years to ask those questions, you know, it’s just kind of But with the introversion, yeah, like I love people. I’ve always been kind of in awe of people. But just how we operate is like, I have to be in small doses. I like small gatherings. I love one-on-one. Even dinner among friends, sitting at a table for too long. Yeah, it’s not for me.

Julianna: Yeah, for sure. And speaking of your love for people and getting into sales, how did your upbringing impact your confidence and what actually inspired you to pursue sales as someone who’s shy and has a stutter?

Mike: So, yeah, growing up and like it’s a good question, like in something that like my book is about this, you know, is it is the stories we we tell ourselves. And growing up, I was surrounded by my dad was in the Air Force. So we were moving around from Army base, what, from Air Force base, Air Force base, and the instruction like was kind of always just like, like, keep your head high, shoulders back, if you’re gonna, like when you shake hands, try to break it. And I was the opposite of this. And my dad like not like, like, environment affects behavior, right? So he had, yeah, like now he’s softer, like he’s softened, like since he’s retired. Yeah, but But being around his friends, colleagues, that rubbed off on me. And I always thought that I was kind of weak, you know, I needed like my call, like the strengths I had, I kind of even hid those unconsciously, just because, like, they weren’t recognized strengths in the world I was living in. So like being curious and sensitive, vulnerable and observer, those things have made my career. But at the time in the 80s, growing up, like it was like the typical like action film is like, like always strong, buff men like will face fear like they love it. Yeah. Yeah. So that impacted the story. I went like like in my head of like, there’s something wrong with me. I’m not enough. I’m not strong. I’m not. all these things of I wasn’t, like, instead of thinking about, like, who I am. And I took the job in sales as kind of a Hail Mary, like I was 23, I had gotten fired from my first job as a like a data analyst at a bank. And I did not like I did not like working on numbers, like it wasn’t a fit. blew my confidence a little bit, but at the same time I was relieved because I knew that that wasn’t for me. And one of the managers actually had suggested like, have you thought about sales? I was like, have you lost your mind? And he was like, you’re actually really like, he was like, you’re really good with people. Like, I don’t know if you see it, but you make people comfortable. And I went on interviews. I saw all my buddies were like getting jobs at good places and enjoying themselves and going on trips. And I was like sitting on the sofa unemployed. And I said, screw it. I’m going to try this sales interview thing. And I found a place that was kind of dumb enough to take me, I guess, like straight commission job. They didn’t have to lose a lot. But that was kind of my Mount Everest of like to do the thing that kind of scares me the most, just to get out of the place I was in internally, and to kind of break free and just be like, Hey, I need to put myself out into the world. And it seemed like I do not know what I was thinking of jumping in the deep end first, it kind of goes against everything that I teach and work with clients first of like, taking small steps being deliberate. Right. But I felt like I had to do something. And the sales job was just the first thing that came into my head. And I did it. And And it worked out? It worked out well, actually. It didn’t work out well in the beginning, but it worked out well long term.

Julianna: Nice. And I know you talk about a lot in your book about choosing comfort over confidence, which I actually really love that concept because so often, especially, I don’t know why, maybe because introverts are tagged as shy, like inward people, we’re always told to be pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zone and doing the uncomfortable thing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by comfort over confidence?

Mike: Sure. This kind of came to me the first The third day at my sales job is like we had to do a role play thing. And I’m betting you’re similar to me of like you do not like to enroll. And the my manager, like I was with the corporate trainer and all that, that the other new hires and my manager saw like how I was responding to the idea of doing a role play. And he pulled me aside and he was like, I’m stealing you for the day. And what he did is he just, yeah, he, like, he sat me in the corner of the desk. He gave me like a pile of leads, a couple of scripts. And he was like, do your thing. Like, and he laughed and I was like. You’re not gonna sit with me. And he was like, no, like, it’s like, if you’re not comfortable, you’re not gonna show up to work tomorrow. He’s like, I don’t like role plays either. Find your own way. Like, and at 23, that was kind of the first time I was ever given, like, free leeway to like, hey, I can figure this thing out. And also the comfort of, he gave me a bunch of dead leads that were old. So it was just me, like, the whole practice was me just picking up the phone, I still stutter on Ms. And I was selling mortgages and my name is Michael. So it was like, like, like, my first seconds was like a tongue twister for me. Like, and I got hung up on countless times. But it was like, my name is Michael Thompson. I’m from National Fidelity mortgage. It just wasn’t Like, it was one of those things that, like, once I got that rhythm, then when I kind of laughed about it, and I was like, all right, like, I can do this, I can do it, I can do it. So that’s one side of, like, the comfort of finding the hard thing that you want to do. And what’s the easy, like, what’s your easy button for it? For me, I was doing it alone, like, just, like, practicing alone, so I could get comfortable. And the more comfortable I am, like, the customers on the other end of the line also, And then in terms of growing your confidence, I always like to try, through that lesson of starting easy, we think about things of meeting new people on the street or something. There are ways to not have that be a nerve-wracking exchange. And it took me a long time to learn that the goal of a first impression Like, is to have a second conversation. Like, that’s it. Like, it doesn’t have to be mind-blowing. Like, find where you’re comfortable. Like, if it’s asking somebody about the weather, like, making a comment on the weather, like, I know it’s, like, we shouldn’t say that. But it’s just a way of, like, people need a time to get a read on you. If you’re approaching anybody on the street, like, guards go straight up. Like in something of the weather, if I have a connection with someone, like I’ve never thought afterwards, like she was cool, but there’s no way I’d like that comment of it being cloudy was lunacy. So it’s just like we usually don’t even remember, like, like the first initial exchange with someone. Yeah. Like asking someone how they’re doing here in Spain. That’s all you hear is que tal. Yes. back and forth and back and forth. But that’s kind of just the dance just to get loosened up a bit and for people to have some space and time. Over the years, I’ve found some really good questions that do make me comfortable because I like stories from people and that help with the people I’m speaking with. And one is from a friend, Kim Dabbs, who I hope to… on her book on belonging. And she likes to ask people, where do you call home? So after an initial, hey, how you doing, first couple of basic, really easy softball questions, that question, it gets to the heart of where someone feels the most comfortable. And maybe if it’s you, it’s not in Madrid, it’s still at home somewhere. You would light up a bit talking about it. Like, and it opens the door for more questions about your upbringing. What were you like? So it’s just a nice little flip of like, where are you from? But my goal, I think, with everybody is to get them as comfortable as possible as quickly as possible. And by doing that, I feel more confident. So it’s kind of a win-win.

Julianna: Yeah, and I find that’s a really good strategy for a lot of introverts, because a lot of the times we don’t like to talk about ourselves, or it just takes us a little bit more time to warm up to someone to really open up or feel comfortable sharing. So putting them in the comfort zone first seems like a really great approach.

Mike: Yeah, and it’s the thing of how you approach someone. It’s not the alpha. kind of approach, it’s more like a puppy dog almost, like head a little bit to the side. Like you don’t have to follow a, like a, like just be you on it, but, but a little bit of a smile or something, those things do go a long way. And it’s finding like, for example, to, for my own comfort, like I’ve lived around a lot, like in three different continents, a bunch of different cities, like, and I go, it’s like, I don’t drink anymore. But one of the first things I do is I have like, like lunch at the same bar, like once a week. Like I said at the bar, bartenders are paid to talk to you. They’re paid to ensure you’re having a good time. They can also tell if you’re not too open. They’ll leave you alone. And they are really tied in with their community. So if you hit it off, they’ll probably introduce you to someone. So finding those, that works really well for me. But like you, if you’re approaching somebody shy, you don’t want to ask them, what does your dream day look like right off the bat? It’s too much. It’s too much, too soon. And it’s just like you’re allowed to play a little bit back and forth. of the simple things, you know, like don’t overthink it, just basic questions, get it moving, smile a little bit and then spot your opening, you know.

Julianna: Right. Well, it sounds like you’re going to have a lot of these really great stories and inspirational motivations in your book.

Mike: Yeah, I hope so. It’s kind of a collection of what I’ve like it like it’s not a how to of do these 12 principles, it’s more inspiring like readers to think of their own 12 principles. Right. So instead of how to it’s how I navigated like, and more importantly, like what the people around me taught me. to help me navigate it. So it’s a lot of like little short tips, like the thing of Kim. So I’m like, my story is the spine of it. But yeah, it’s like, there’s a lot of heroes in someone’s hero’s journey, you know?

Julianna: Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. And speaking of kind of confidence, what exercises would you recommend for someone who’s looking to build confidence and act with boldness and the moments that really matter?

Mike: So this is something like, there’s two things I do. And the first one’s a little quirky. And the second thing is really actionable. I have the letters on my wall as a reminder. But I keep a holy shit jar of kind of the times that I said to myself, holy shit, I did that. We may not think about it very much, but if we’re listening to this or we’re talking now, we’re both alive. And that means we’ve overcome challenges. hardships And taking a little bit of pride in that like we’ve both moved to new countries like maybe there’s days where we’re like Like feeling lost and lonely and that like are like we’re weak or what? It’s just like wow, like we just did an incredibly brave thing. Yeah Like that’s a big example, but basically like anytime you overcome something like today I’ll probably have a holy shit like note of doing a podcast interview just like I like to share my messages, but it’s like, I like being in person and video, like an audio is a new thing. So this is a big thing for me. Right. So I’m going to like have a note of all the times I overcame something, um, that kind of serves as a reminder of the things we have gone through and taking pride in that. Like, like, yeah, I asked myself a couple of questions every day. And like, one of them is like, what, what made you proud today? Like in focusing on the good things we are doing. So between the challenges and our daily good things, that helps me to push through. And the second is something I share in the book, is a friend of mine, Jeanette, she wrote a book on the self-care mindset, it’s called. And like I helped her on her book and I had learned, like I had my loved one got a serious health issue. I couldn’t travel home because of COVID. She asked me right in the middle of this, I was juggling another book. And she was like, I was 45 when both of my parents died of cancer, this book, Is how I reclaimed agency And may like maybe it’s just the thing that you need right now. So she kind of sold me like like um into helping on the book, but One of her frameworks that works just like like it’s my go-to is is called trip away Like and it’s acknowledge except ask so kind of acknowledge the circumstances you’re like as a more hands-on example. If you have to give a talk at a, um, like at work, like, and you don’t like public speaking, like acknowledge that the date that, that, that you have these feelings inside, you’re worried, concerned, fear of embarrassment, get them down on paper, like acknowledge what you’re feeling, kind of accept that the date’s approaching, like it’s going to come no matter what, like and accept your emotions for, like as being human. Like I see being a worrier is the same thing as being someone who cares a lot. So it’s kind of like if you’re worried about something, like right at that, like you’re allowed to worry about something. I mean, like an accept it and then ask, what do I need so that I can dot, dot, dot, gain more confidence, regain my footing. And like in the thing of a presentation, like it could be, Starting off where you were doing well like in your practice To get some momentum again It could be caught it could be that you go for a walk like it could be you step away for 24 hours right and it could be that you call friends like who’s gonna like allow you to flounder a bit and to practice with them like and it’s Like it just helps you to identify like what’s that that next small step you can take? To get going again So I have that literally like on my office wall. And it’s just the remind, like, it’s so simple. It’s like, hey, I’m human. And like, I feel nervous. Of course, I do. Like, this is a scary thing. And then asking, what do I need to move forward?

Julianna: Yeah, I, I think that’s such a better framework than, you know, those motivational posters that are also on walls, where it’s just like, just push yourself beyond. Because it, like the the idea of acknowledging the discomfort is so important. Like, even with your example of doing a presentation at work, that is really nerve wracking for a lot of people. And I think a lot of them just kind of hope that the day it comes, they can pump themselves up and it’ll be okay. And honestly, it’s such a bad way to go about it, because you’re not properly prepared for that moment. Like I remember doing a lot of presentations and people are like, how do you do that so well? I’m like, well, I probably practice that maybe 20 times, five times in my head and 15 out loud in a meeting room so that it would feel really comfortable when I’m doing it. And they’re like, oh my God, it seems so natural. Well, yeah, that’s because I’m really nervous and I wanted to make sure it was going to, like I was going to present well.

Mike: Like it’s funny how it’s usually the ones who are kind of like, oh, I’m going to screw this up, who end up doing really well with it just because of the caring aspect. But to it is a thing of growing up, like I had a, like some bad experiences with job interviews, presentations, like I got asked once to sit like a guy, like, because my first sales interview, like the guy slid across the desk, his pen, like, like in a movie, like it was like, sell me this pen, like, Glen Ross or something. And I didn’t like I didn’t know anything about sales. Like and I stood up and I shaked his hand, I gave him his pen back. And I was like, this isn’t gonna happen. Like this isn’t gonna work and I But that experience stuck with me in other interviews, you know I mean like all the times we kind of screw up like stick with like we can do a hundred Things right like and you’ll still have that time that you screwed up a presentation like just yeah for me like in high school I gave a presentation I had to like wait like the kid like I was the last one to go. Of course I was like I should go first now, I know that, just to get out of the way. But I went last, and my speech ran out. I got hung up. And the speech ran over minutes after the class was out. So it was just kind of like a bunch of 14-year-olds sitting there, backpacks in their hands, knees shaking, like, when’s this kid getting finished? Like and those things stuck it. Yeah, like and that carries with you like and the only way to break those memories is to create new ones Yeah, like and focus on the times that you do do, right? But it’s fun to think of ways the preparing thing like I love that you do it in a meeting room. Mm-hmm Like and one thing I do to get started Is like I took some time off to write the book and help with clients books and that like now i’m like back in front again And my way of doing that was I started to read stories at my kids’ schools in English. And that was just me getting in front of a group of kids and trying to keep their attention reading a story that they didn’t understand. So I had to get goofy and hand gestures and exaggerate. But that was my way. I was totally selfish. That’s my comfort way of, they’re not going to make fun of me to their group of friends tonight at the bar. You know what I mean? It was just a simple thing to do.

Julianna: Yeah, I think practicing in a real life situation makes such a big difference because then you’re kind of in the mindset rather than sort of in this crucible that doesn’t have anything to do with the reality. I think of people who run marathons and a lot of them will actually practice on either the exact route or route that’s similar so that they’re familiar with it and their body’s conditioned. And I think when you talk about building confidence that way, it’s really similar with building confidence in the situation that you’re actually going to face.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. The lower the stakes, the better in the beginning, you know, like, yeah. do it alone the first time and then maybe ask a friend to sit in the conference room with you or something. Like I think it’s in Susan Cain’s book, Quiet, where she, like her public speaking coach, I think the first day, they just had to stand up and say their name. Like in the second day, they went up on stage together and talked for a little bit. Like, and it was just like, those small things really do work, huh? Just to get you comfortable or like to ask a question at someone else’s presentation. like to stand up and raise your hand, like, like, you know, like, you can ease in to all of these things. But the confidence you get by just that one presentation that does do well is life. Like, like, it really is life changing, I think.

Julianna: It really is. Yeah, well, I’m just mindful of time. And I did want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about your book, which I’m super excited about. I know you talked about it a little bit already, but can you share a bit more about what people can expect inside the book?

Mike: Yes, yeah. So the name of the book is Shy by Design, Time, Twine, Twelve, Twelve Timeless Principles to Quietly Stand Out. And it’s basically the book that I wish I had when I was starting out in my career And going forward like just kind of a like you can dip in and out of it Like in the sense that there’s stories like an actual tips like we’ve threw out of like Throughout the book. It’s kind of the like you can have it on your uh your nightstand right but it’s essentially like the book I needed and my oldest son stutters like in a shy and it’s just kind of a book that just to let him know he’s already cool like and have some actionable things that don’t sound condescending like for me like I don’t like being told what to do right and writing in the self-help industry. I think living in Europe helps just because it’s like you like you like you have to soften it. Like and for him just to have a guide and countless like my students here in Barcelona, too, it’s like they kept pushing me to like like all of your articles, your teachings and classes, like get it into a book, please. So it’s very much my like it’s the top of my first mountain, so to speak. I’m forty five and it’s my lessons learned what the like the good people in the world have taught me. a bunch of stories of me screwing up. And yeah, like it’s kind of like not like from going from not from good to great, but from bad to not awful. Like with presentations, I won’t be Tony Robbins probably ever, you know, but I like like I’ve gone from. Petrified and awful to like getting excited about it, like and also not being horrible at it. So it’s just kind of like the spark to get people moving.

Julianna: And that’s such an important niche to fill, I think, because most of us aren’t going to be Tony Robbins anyway. So I love that your stories are more about a real person kind of going from a place of being terrified of something or terrible at something to, yeah, I can do this. I can get excited.

Mike: Yeah, and at 45, I’m still just as scared as I was at times when I was 20. I have confidence in some areas. But I think that’s what makes life kind of interesting, though. I want to face problems and have challenges. That’s life. So I’m happy that the way that I was nervous in the book, but I’m thrilled how it turned out. And you can find it on my website, which is michaelthompson.art, art like artist. And on LinkedIn, I’m michaelthompson. There’s a lot of me.

Julianna: Yeah, I’ll make sure I have the exact links in the show notes.

Mike: My website has all the links. Yeah, I just try to point everyone just to the website just because the disbursement is there.

Julianna: Cool. Yeah, I’ll make sure our listeners can find you wherever you are in the right mic, Thompson. Great. Well, thank you so much for being on our podcast today. It’s been lovely talking to you, Mike.

Mike: Thank you so much for having me. And it’s been really great getting to know you. And you’ve been a massive help for me the last month. So it feels like this one, me, like this episode, like it means a lot.

Julianna: Yeah, absolutely. No, I love bringing people like you onto the podcast to share their stories and spread their knowledge out to everybody out there.

Mike: Thanks again, and I’ll talk to you sooner than later.

Julianna: Yeah. Thanks to all the listeners, and we’ll see you next time.